Session 11: Janneke on booking Eurosonic Noorderslag out of 4,000 applications a year

Janneke moved from playing in a DIY punk duo through organiser work into booking international acts for Eurosonic Noorderslag, which receives around 4,000 applications a year for roughly 250 to 300 slots. She's explicit that a booking agent is not required to apply, most artists they book do have one, but it isn't a gate, and independent artists can and do get in. What kills an application fastest is a copy-pasted, clearly mass-sent email that shows no knowledge of who's actually reading it. Asked what makes an act stand out, her honest answer is that it's hard to define, but she points to genuine stage presence and credibility (using Joshua Idehen as an example) over technical polish. Her wider point on artist wellbeing: there's a real gap between wanting to create and being asked by professionals like her what your goal is, and understanding that gap, rather than pretending it isn't there, is part of what makes an artist easier to work with and, she suspects, more at peace with the process.

Full transcript

Session 11 - Conversation with Janneke
(Speakers corrected. Embedded interjections split out to the right speaker. Words kept verbatim. Name mishears fixed: host "Erin" normalized to "Eryn"; "Annika" corrected to "Hanneke" where it refers to the Simplon booker from last week, and to "Janneke" in the closing where it refers to the guest.)

Speakers:
- Eryn (host)
- Janneke (guest, Eurosonic Noorderslag / Explore the North)


[Eryn]
Okay, perfect. I think I'm just gonna go ahead and get started. And we'll let some of the last people who are joining today trickle in. But welcome, Janneke, and thank you so much for joining. We're really happy to have you here to impart some knowledge on our artists that are in our Discord. So why don't we begin by you telling us a little bit about yourself and your background and sort of how you came to work in music and came to ES&S.

[Janneke]
Right, all right. My name is Janneke. I live in Groningen. How I came to work at ES&S. Well, I started as an artist, actually. I started with making music, punk music mostly. I played in multiple bands. And then I studied popular culture in Leeuwarden and I discovered that I really like organizing and especially curating music. And after my studies, well, I was already doing some freelancing work during my studies, mostly in artist production and a little bit of marketing, but I didn't like that as much. And my graduation project was my own event at Vera where I played with my own band as well. So that was the perfect opportunity for me to present myself both as an artist, musician and event organizer. And we're still organizing events. Our last event at Vera was last Friday. So that's very fun. So we've been doing that for four years and then quickly after my graduation, I started working at Vera in production. And at some point there was a vacancy at Eurosonic Noorderslag. I applied and I got the job and I've been there for almost three years now. First, I started as a junior booker or booking assistant in the Dutch bookings for Noorderslag, which is a festival on Saturday for people that are maybe not as familiar. And now I switched to international bookings, which I like a lot. It's very, very cool. Eurosonic Noorderslag is a very big showcase festival and it's a very tough job to make a nice selection out of so many European applications that we get. Yeah, and besides ESNS, I also work as a music promoter at Explorer North Festival. Yeah, I guess that's basically in a nutshell what I'm doing.

[Eryn]
Do you wanna expand a little bit also on Explore the North and tell us a little bit about the work that you do there?

[Janneke]
Of course, yeah. Explore The North is a festival in Leeuwarden, which is based around literary program. So everything that we do kind of has literature in its DNA. What we try to do is bring literature to a stage and I'm one of the music promoters. So all of the music that we book also kind of has that in its core. Sometimes we also just book. Oh, it's called Explore the North. It used to really be about the North and now it's more about Explore than it is in the North. So yes, thank you, Eryn.

[Eryn]
Yeah, no worries.

[Janneke]
So yeah, I do music bookings there. It's a lot of experimental music, but also a lot of storytelling type of artists. And some really are very inspired by literature or do something with literature in their performance. So it's a very, yeah, and it's way smaller than Eurosonic, by the way. I think we have around 10 venues, which is, well, not that small. It's maybe doesn't sound that small, but yeah. It is relatively small and we book around a contemporary theme and we try to book very diverse and from all levels. So hyper-local to international artists. Yeah, so not just European either. Eurosonic is just European artists. Yeah.

[Eryn]
Yeah, so I guess first off, I'm curious to know how your experience with booking for Eurosonic informs your experience with Explore the North and vice versa. Is there any other times where you find artists via Eurosonic that you'll then book for Explore the North or you'll find artists for Explore the North that you'll then try to get in for Eurosonic or Noordslag? I'm really curious about that.

[Janneke]
Yeah, sometimes it does. Yeah, it does work both ways. And it's also when I'm somewhere, like for example, last week, I was in Edinburgh for a festival as a representative of Eurosonic and to scout, well, mainly Scottish artists. And I mean, I am one person. So I always look out for anything that I could book an artist for. So whether that's Eurosonic or Explore the North. But yeah, we actually have an artist that played at ESNES this year, so last January, that I booked for Explore the North festival. So it happens.

[Eryn]
Wow.

[Janneke]
Yeah, and maybe also the other way around. I don't think that has happened just quite yet. But yeah, there can be overlap. It just really depends on what type of artist it is. Because at ESNES, the focus is really emerging artists from all over Europe. So yeah, kind of the best of the best of the emerging artists is usually how I would describe it. While Explore the North has like, because we also work around a theme. So it's kind of specific and more tailor-made, I would say. So it depends a bit. But there can be overlap for sure. It's really nice to have both jobs. So I can look out for multiple things, yeah.

[Eryn]
Yeah, I'm sure. And as an artist yourself, how, first of all, what kind of got you from performing as just an artist to thinking to yourself, okay, I really want to get into curation and I really want to get into booking. And how, yeah, I'll just start with that and then I'll ask a follow-up question.

[Janneke]
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think for me, it started with, well, I was in a band, a punk band, me on guitar and my friends on drums. So just the two of us. And it was for quite a big chunk of our existence. It was during COVID. So we played a lot of weird type of random shows. And not really the shows we had been wanting to play, like in smaller venues, with crowds that are just as excited about this type of music as we are. But we would take those bookings, like those shows, because we felt like, yeah, we need to keep going and progress. So we played some local festivals with all types of genres on the lineup. And we did live sessions with 30 people because they had to sit one and a half meters from each other, you know. And we did live streams and that sort of thing. But we always felt like, okay, but we really want to be in the specific types of venues and events. And we feel like the thing that we have in mind, that we want to be a part of, is not even in Groningen or something. So we started the Hands Off project to be able to create that space for ourselves and for artists like us, basically. I guess it kind of went organically and from, well, a type of frustration, really, that I felt like there should be a place for artists like me. And I feel like there is a lot more now. But yeah, we just felt like taking matters into our own hands. And I knew that I was interested in curating. Because I had spoken to a lot of curators, music bookers, also for some research for my studies. So I was like, okay, this sounds really interesting and it's something I'd be able to do. Yeah, and I always felt like with my own music, I make punk music and kind of a niche. And I never felt like, okay, well, it was always like, I need to do something more to be able, after my studies, to be able to sustain myself like quite literally, just in a practical sense. And I never felt like, yeah, I'm not gonna have my own recording studio. I don't like live, like the technical stuff. Organizing is more my, yeah. I think my talents lie there. And now it is, sorry?

[Eryn]
No, I was just gonna say, I'm right there with you. So I get it completely.

[Janneke]
Right. But yeah, it kind of happened organically. And now I'm not, I have to be honest, I'm not making as much music anymore. Well, I'm not playing live anyway. That has been a while. But yeah, I try to do it on the side for a bit. And just for myself also as an outlet, just, yeah, to have that.

[Eryn]
And I'm sure you can also kind of bring that experience as a musician, like into the work that you do now, even if it's not on a stage. My follow-up question was, I'm curious to know how your experience as an artist and experience in a band has informed your sort of perspective on booking, when booking artists for either Explore the North or for Eurosonic.

[Janneke]
Yeah, that's a really tough question. I think because I'm a musician, I've been making music my whole life also. As a kid, I was in an orchestra and stuff. So I'm also like theoretically trained a little bit. It's, to be honest, it kind of just starts with knowing if something is good. If someone is a good singer, if someone is a good, plays their instruments well. So I think that really helps that I have a trained ear, I would say. For sure. And otherwise, I think storytelling is a very big part of it because that was a big part of my studies. Like how do you tell a story? How do you deliver a message basically? And I think a lot of artists that I find interesting or that I see have potential in some sort of way for either the festivals that I book for or long-term. Yeah, I don't know. There's just something distinct about them usually. And I think I'm like developing that gut feeling of when something's good or something. But it is a bit vague, but it's also because I'm still trying to figure out what it is.

[Eryn]
Yeah, of course. I see that, sorry? No, I was gonna say, we've had a lot of conversations with some other bookers too who have kind of said something similar where like finding like a niche or a uniqueness as an artist is really important for, in terms of growth and success. Just being sort of unapologetically yourself and like unique in that way is so important.

[Janneke]
Yeah, I think so, definitely. And I saw that Liz asked, don't you miss playing live though? Yes, I do, yeah. And when I see artists on stage, sometimes I'm still like blown away by a performance. And I feel like, ah, that's so inspiring. Like, oh, I wanna try that or do that. But yeah, I don't know. I've also decided that it's all right to focus on what I'm doing right now because like after my studies, I kind of quickly, like some opportunities followed up like one after another. And I was like, yeah, I should do this. I should explore this now. And playing music, playing live, yeah, I can always do that more again if I want to. I mean, I have to network now. I've never had a bigger network than I do now.

[Eryn]
Yeah, it'll benefit both.

[Janneke]
In live music.

[Eryn]
Yeah, it'll benefit both in the long run. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I agree with Ina that it's really nice knowing both sides, like getting, I feel like the administrative side informs the creative side just as much and like vice versa, really getting like a good perspective on like how the industry operates and like how people's minds and how executives' minds work when it comes to, yeah, just like putting yourself out there and making your own music as well.

[Janneke]
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I also feel like it really helps to connect with artists because especially like at both the festivals that I work for, I am mostly in contact with either a booking agent, sometimes management, sometimes a label representative that works with an artist. But when I was in Edinburgh last week, for example, I also had like speed meetings with artists who weren't just quite there yet to play at ES&S. I mean, they needed some more, yeah. Most of them needed to take some more steps, you know? Yeah, of course. But it was really nice to be able to speak with artists at an early stage in their career and to just hear about what they are doing and how it's going for them. And I feel like, because I was in the same position, I kind of know where they're coming from, what they're looking for, and how hard it can be to be asked, like, what is your next step? Or like, where are you going with your project, with your music? Because it is quite hard to know. Because as an artist, you just wanna create from an intrinsic sort of drive. And then there's like professionals like myself asking you, so what are you gonna do with the music? Like, where are you going towards? What is your goal? What is your ambition? And I think being able to understand that there's like a gap between those, just like just wanting to create and having to go somewhere with your music if you're serious about your music and what that exactly is. I think understanding that there's sometimes a disconnection there is, yeah, it's nice. It helped, yeah. I can easily connect with artists because of, yeah.

[Eryn]
I'm also curious, this might be a bit too complicated of a question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Kind of similar to what you were saying, like, where do you think the line is for an artist who's sort of creating music for the purpose of, you know, creating their own art and then creating their music for the purpose of their career and their growth? Like, I don't know if that makes any sense, what I just said.

[Janneke]
Yeah, I think that's just very personal. I mean, I can also understand very well. For some artists, they just wanna play music. They just want to create, collaborate with other people, play some nice gigs, have that as an outlet for themselves and maybe just have a job on the sides and are okay with that. Just like having a day job and then being able to do their thing outside of that, basically. I can understand, like, I can imagine very well that that is something that you wanna do. But I also know, like, on the other side, the hard truth is that for a lot of artists, it is a necessity to have a day job still. And sometimes it's extremely difficult to combine when you have, like, crazy, I mean, as an artist, you have crazy working hours, basically. Because you have to sustain, like, your project all the time. You have to write and to rehearse and perfect your performance or, I don't know, it is a constant strain of work and, like, going to the next step. And then you have those, yeah, I mean, touring is crazy for your mental and physical health. And, yeah, it's, I mean, sometimes, I've played at, like, 4 a.m. once and that was horrible. Like, I had struggled, like, I struggled to, like, go properly back to work the next week.

[Eryn]
So much.

[Janneke]
Because it just takes a toll on your body and your rhythm, you know? So, yeah, I think it's very personal. It really depends on, like, I think either is fine. It is entirely up to you. If you are, if you feel like, I want to make this into my career, then that's great. But, yeah, the road is quite long and quite hard, I would say, for many artists. But I can also understand very well that it's just something you want to do on the side, like, as a semi, in a semi-professional way. I think most artists who are in, like, well, you have, like, the people on top of the pyramid, like, who are full-time pop stars or whatever, or full-time touring or something like that. I mean, that can also, you don't have to be a pop star. There's also, like, you can also make money off of music in a more niche type of music. But then there's, like, on the bottom of the pyramids, this is how I always view it in my head. You have, like, people who do it really just for fun, who play in bars and whatever, which is, I think, quite a big amount of people, actually. And then you have the people in the middle, which is, most of the time, the people that I book at Eurosonic, which are, like, on the brink of some type of breakthrough, who are not just quite there yet to be able to, like, sustain themselves off of their music, which I think is the most difficult position to be in, because then you're doing both.

[Eryn]
Yeah. You're working really hard at, like, your sort of growing career, but then you're, like you said, you're not exactly able to sustain yourself just yet. So I think it's great that that's kind of where Eurosonic comes into, to kind of give those artists a bit of a boost.

[Janneke]
Yeah.

[Eryn]
So that their careers are more sustainable.

[Janneke]
Yeah, that's what we try.

[Eryn]
Yeah, for sure. I'm curious to know how much of your booking process is, like, scouting and going to live festivals and seeing artists, like, in person before you book them for the stage, and how much of it is, like, corresponding with booking agents and kind of just, like, trusting word of mouth for an artist that you haven't seen live maybe before Eurosonic or before Explore the North?

[Janneke]
Right. I guess for me, seeing, being able to see artists live is, I mean, I'm just starting out as a, as a booker as well, right? I've been doing this for almost three years. So I feel like more and more, it's going towards being able to see artists beforehand and to sometimes meet them or their agents. So I think it's getting more tangible in that sense. But a big chunk of my time, basically, is indeed, like, knowing whose opinions to trust and, yeah, just a bunch of communication with people and a bunch of just listening and looking at live videos and that sort of thing as well. Because, I mean, for ES&S, we receive around 4,000 applications. This year, we might even receive more because we opened the application form earlier, actually. It used to only open on May 1st, but this year we opened it in March already. Yeah. So I'm curious to see if, like, we're going to have more applications in the end or if it's going to be more spread out. So, but that's just like, we will only know that in September. But anyway, we receive a lot of applications and it is impossible to see all of them live, right? So I also have to go off on a good application sometimes. But luckily I am not the only booker. We do it with a team, the international bookings, at least, for Eurosonic. We do it with a team of three people and they are much more experienced than I am and sometimes have seen an artist three years ago already and saw them again. And then we're like, okay, now is the time for an artist, you know? So they are very much in this cycle already and I'm just getting started, I feel. But it's getting more and more of seeing artists live before booking them, which is really great.

[Eryn]
I'm also curious to ask too then, because like you mentioned, you have two other sort of more experienced bookers on the team, that's Oscar and Robert. Yeah. And I'm curious to know like what you might have learned from them in the past year that has sort of inspired your booking process as someone who is also kind of still kind of growing in the industry.

[Janneke]
Yeah, that's a good question. I think I find, well, I really admire the way they do their jobs. They really travel a lot and they are, both of them, they are very like knowledgeable about this whole network that is there. Also more and more like fully international, so not just a European network, but full network. And it's just, sometimes I ask like, oh, why don't we do something like this and why don't we do something like this? And they just have like this, I don't know, multiple, these multiple steps in their heads of like, no, but if we make this decision, it has impact on this and that. Because I mean, ES&S is such a monster event, basically, with so many strings attached everywhere and a lot of partners and a lot of, yeah. I mean, it takes a lot of insight and they've both really grown into that world and I'm just now exploring it. So yeah, before I encounter those types of situations and I'm like, aha, so that's how it works or something. Yeah, I couldn't like really pinpoint because your question was like, what is something that's inspired me or?

[Eryn]
Yeah, I mean, something, I guess, that has like informed your own process that you've learned from their experiences.

[Janneke]
Yeah, I guess it's just really when you like do one thing, how it impacts 20 other things kind of.

[Eryn]
Yeah.

[Janneke]
And I'm trying to like get that overview.

[Eryn]
Yeah, I think like having a good overview is really the key here.

[Janneke]
Yeah.

[Eryn]
Yeah, and just going back to you mentioning that ES&S is a monster event for anyone in the session who might not have as much context. ES&S books around, is it 250 to 300 artists?

[Janneke]
Yeah.

[Eryn]
Every year across four days. And then EuroSonic is the Wednesday through Friday and then Noorderslag is the Dutch music festival that is on Saturday. But there are also Dutch artists who will perform for EuroSonic and Noorderslag, right?

[Janneke]
Yeah, sometimes it depends a little bit because Noorderslag is really an overview of what the Dutch music industry is looking like. So we use the entirety of the Oosterpoort, which is a big music venue in Groningen, which has a bigger hall, like a bigger stage and some smaller stages. So we book like the artists that are almost almost, yeah, that are basically already having careers, but are like the newest in that regard still. Yeah. If that makes sense. And then also the artists that are completely underground still or art have just been discovered kind of. So Noorderslag is really like this, there's more width, it's more broad.

[Eryn]
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Janneke]
More types of levels and EuroSonic. I mean, of course there are some EuroSonic artists who are, I don't know, a bit more popular already than others. So in that sense, it is still diverse, but it's more like equally leveled, I would say, because it's artists from all over Europe who are kind of on the same level in their career, not precisely, but I don't know. I don't know. It's also something that's very difficult to measure, of course, like, where are you in your career? Yeah, of course. But yeah, so it does happen that an artist plays both EuroSonic and Noorderslag in the same year, because it makes sense, because they're really like parts of the Dutch music industry and are represented in the Dutch music industry a lot, but they're also, for first time, going abroad for a little bit.

[Eryn]
Yeah, and it's, yeah, it's of course important to kind of expose the Dutch side of the industry to the international.

[Janneke]
Exactly, yeah. In the end, that's also what ES&S, that's one of our main goals, is promoting Dutch music into the rest of the world, basically. It's one of the main ideas behind ES&S, yeah.

[Eryn]
And then you also have two additional bookers for Noorderslag specifically, right?

[Janneke]
Yes.

[Eryn]
Okay, yeah. Just wanted to check on that.

[Janneke]
Yeah, and we have, of course, for the people who are not familiar, a big conference during those days. So during the day, there are panels and meetings, and it's just a bunch of people, bunch of music professionals coming together, and I don't know, they close deals, they meet each other, we have dinner receptions, bowls, which are drinks. So that's also a really big reason for people to come to ES&S, but ES&S was also one of the first showcase festivals and a conference. It just really makes sense to add that because you give professionals more, like music industry professionals, more reason to be here because you can discover new artists or represent your own artists there and push their music and do networking.

[Eryn]
Yeah, for sure.

[Janneke]
Learn something from panels. So it's also the combination of both that is, I think, yeah, that makes it really strong. You also see a lot of new or more young showcase festivals doing that or festivals starting with showcasing artists and then evolving into something more broad. So adding a conference, for example.

[Eryn]
Yeah. And I will say for someone who has experienced Eurosonic Noorderslag, it really does, like the whole city of Groningen does become like a music industry convention for about four days or so. And I wanted to speak to any, of course, independent artists in our session who might not necessarily be at ES&S's or Eurosonic's caliber yet to be booked. The really cool thing about Groningen and all of these sort of subcultural events that happen around it is that at the same time that Eurosonic is going on, there are a ton of other different organizations and programs that are putting on their own mini showcases in other venues at the same time because they're taking advantage of the fact that there are so many music industry executives in the city at that time. So it's also just a really great place to see like the Groningen local scene and artists like up and coming artists from the Netherlands. We've talked a couple of times about Popronde as well and how, you know, there are a lot of artists who like play at those additional showcases during Eurosonic, but not necessarily a part of it that then go on to play Popronde and, you know, start to kind of make their beginnings in their performances and their work as well too. So that's one thing that I find that's so cool about the festival.

[Janneke]
Yeah, that's very true. Yeah, it's really like, I mean, we don't organize those extra events. Yeah. But we do endorse them because we think it adds a lot of value to, well, to artists' careers for one.

[Eryn]
Yeah, for sure.

[Janneke]
But also to the atmosphere of the city. It is, yeah, it is very true. Groningen just really becomes ESNS for a week. Basically it's, yeah, we really turned the whole city upside down that way. But it's very much like a, yeah, because there are so many local organizations and well, organizations from everywhere who are also organizing and hosting events. That's just, yeah, it's really a team effort in creating a large exhibition of music.

[Eryn]
That's very well put. Yeah, exactly. I now also have a series of form questions from our Discord members to ask of you so that we still have time to give our community a little bit of a voice. But I wanted to start with a question from Martha in the chat that we have here. And she's asking, when does it make sense for an artist to go abroad and play festivals slash showcase festivals? Like at what point in their careers? I assume the growth of their work.

[Janneke]
That's a good question. I think there is some variety or like it differs a little bit per artist, I would say. Because if you are, for example, in a, I don't know, some sort of garage type of rock band and you're doing, like you're playing a lot of DIY shows, you're already doing very well. And then sometime, at some point, you're getting booked for more professional festivals and that sort of thing. Like it happens organically. And for like, what I mean to say is for some artists, it happens because they are already playing so much life, sometimes just in their home country, sometimes already a little bit abroad. And then there's an agent who thinks like, hey, they're doing well, I'm gonna help them. And then we take notice. And yeah, they play Eurosonic and then a lot of other showcase festivals and it gets the ball rolling like that. Sometimes an artist is doing very well in their home country like they are almost like a famous person in their own country playing, like getting a lot of airplay on the radio or yeah, won a lot of awards. And then people take notice and we feel like, okay, this could really also break through outside of their home country. So what I'm trying to say is that it kind of differs per artist, I would say. But one thing that is in general true, I think is that it really helps when you have a little bit of a team around you already who can help you. And then by that, I mean like either a manager or a booking agent or a label who can really help you promote your music. Because when you are at a showcase festival, you can play the show, which is great. And people will see the show, but they are also curious, like, who are you working with? Like, where are you going? What is some sort of strategy? So yeah, it helps to have a little bit of a team around you also to not have to do everything yourselves because I think in the end, artists should be able to focus on creating music and on their live performance. And sometimes there's artists who are independent and who are doing this job themselves and they do it very well. But I think it helps to have some people around it, like have a little bit of a team around the act because it helps to take an extra step kind of, aside from the music being good, you know? Yeah, I think that's still a bit of a broad answer, but I hope that answers the question a little bit.

[Eryn]
Yeah, but I think it's also important to recognize that for a lot of artists, this experience is so individual and no one has the same career trajectory. And it's, you know, it's kind of important to just go with like what you trust and whether you're comfortable bringing a team on or whether you wanna do everything entirely on your own. That is completely up to the artist and what they want to do with their work. But that kind of leads into a next question from the chat that I'm seeing here from a band called Green Tea Bitches. Oh, yeah. Who are asking, they've played a couple of international showcases by applying themselves, but they understand that for ES&S, they need a booking agent, which I'm not sure.

[Janneke]
It's not needed. Yeah. No, you can just apply already if you find an agent in the meantime, that can help, of course. But maybe I should make that more clear. It is not necessary to have a booking agent. We do book independent artists and you can apply as an independent artist. You can also find that on the websites. You can just fill out who is applying. So that's completely fine. But your question is, what's the best way to find the right booking agents? That's a tough one and one that I don't have that much experience with. As an artist, I've never had a booking agent myself because I played in such niche, like a niche type of scene. And yeah, I've always been very DIY minded. So we did a lot of that extra stuff ourselves as well. And now I'm like on the other side, like I'm a festival booker and yeah, not an agent. But how I would do it maybe is, yeah, try to see if there are artists like you or artists that you look up to or really like. See who their agent is and invite that agent to a gig of yours maybe. If you feel like, hmm, this could be a fit maybe. Or invite them to have a coffee or yeah. I think this is also what I've heard from some other artists, how it worked. But yeah, I think that it's just trying, it's really about trying to make a connection with someone and seeing who could be a good fit, like who could be a good addition to your team because as an artist, you're already, or a band, you're a team already. So you should really be careful who you add to the team, I guess. That would be, yeah. If you could keep on doing things DIY, that's completely fine as well. It's not a necessity to have a booking agent. It can just help.

[Eryn]
And then, yeah, because they've also noted in the chat that they were told that without an agent, they wouldn't be taken seriously. I assume that that might be the case for a lot of festivals, but not necessarily for ES&S.

[Janneke]
You know, no, I think with ES&S, I mean, the biggest amount of artists that we book do have an agent, but I just, I don't want to pin it down kind of because we do book some independent artists. Just most of them do have an agent, it is true.

[Eryn]
Yeah, I would recommend it. Yeah, it's not a necessity, but it does make the work a little bit easier.

[Janneke]
Yes, and it is the case for most artists that we book. Sorry if that's a bit confusing. Yeah, you won't be taken seriously. I don't know, I do take artists seriously, but agents, they do really help. That's just how it is, yes.

[Eryn]
To follow up, does it have to be an agent that is well-known? Or is it okay to have a small agent?

[Janneke]
Yeah, you can have a smaller agent as well. Yeah, it should just be someone who is very involved and out there in the music industry, kind of, yeah. But it doesn't have to be someone from the bigger agencies, if that's what you mean. Yeah, someone with a good network, I think is always a good idea.

[Eryn]
Yeah, that's the key, yeah. And then I have some questions. Yeah, no problem. I have some questions from our separate form that we put in the general chat before the session today. Okay. And let me see what I can ask. Okay, what helps an emerging artist stand out for a showcase festival like ES&S? I know you said earlier that you're still trying to pin down exactly what that sort of, quote unquote, X factor is for a lot of artists that you book. But if you can try to kind of articulate it, what about the artists that you book really stands out to you or the rest of the booking team?

[Janneke]
I think for us, sometimes it's like when something is very innovative, like a sound or sort of some type of storytelling that hasn't really been done before. But yeah, in general, when does something stand out? I think it's a very tough question. It just does, kind of. Because I know a lot of bands that are technically playing well. Like, I mean, like actually like they're playing their instruments well. But the music is just not there yet because it doesn't really catch on or, I don't know. Doesn't really tell a story that much yet.

[Eryn]
Yeah.

[Janneke]
And sometimes it can evolve into that. But sometimes also it doesn't. Yeah, I think in general, when does something stand out to you? Yeah, what is that?

[Eryn]
That's a good question. I think to sort of answer a little bit of the question on behalf of maybe the person who asked the question, one thing that I notice a lot with artists who I've seen perform at Eurosonic is a really strong stage presence. There are a lot of really great artists who, you know, their genre or their music might not be for everyone, but they're really exciting to watch. And they're really, they really captivate their audience really well. So yeah, Liz is asking, do you remember if there's anything in particular that stood out to you last year for the last ES&S?

[Janneke]
Yeah, I think what you're describing, by the way, Eryn, is very, very true. ES&S is a live event. We focus on the live sector mainly as well. I mean, there's this whole, it is an infrastructure as a whole. I mean, radio, media, everything is important, but we really focus on live. So I think, yeah, a good live performance is probably what is most important in standing out. But then still, like, when does something stand out? Yeah, it is just when something is complete, I guess. And something that stood out to me last year, yeah, I really liked, for example, Joshua Idehen. He played in the Grand Theater, Grand Theater. This year, and he is like one of the prime examples of an artist who is amazing on stage. I wouldn't, for him, I wouldn't say his music is innovative per se. Like the instrumentals are not like revolutionary or anything, but he is just really someone who captures the audience. And yeah, you can just see that he's comfortable on stage. He's really claiming the space and making it his own and creates room to tell a story that way.

[Eryn]
So, yeah. I love that you mentioned Joshua Idehen because I've been listening to his album nonstop since it came out. And I think one thing that's so captivating about him is that he's so confident with what he does. Like he's so, he has such a firm mission with what he wants to do with his music and it really delivers. No, he's so great.

[Janneke]
An artist like that really stands out, I think. Someone is saying, sounds like a good charisma would really help in this. Yeah. I mean, I think when an artist becomes arrogant, you can tell, and it doesn't, I would say it doesn't really help. It's important to be confident and to take yourself seriously with your music, but yeah, being arrogant doesn't, I think. Well.

[Eryn]
And going back to the uniqueness factor with Joshua Idehen too, is I think for anyone who doesn't know his music, he's a spoken word poet that has kind of added a bit of electronic dance music to his poetry in a way. And so obviously I'm not saying go and use him as a case study, but just to get an example at what is so, I think, yeah, like I said, identifiably unique about a certain artist and that he's so, nobody's ever really seen, or maybe that type of music isn't very popular, but he's so confident with what he's delivering. So I think that, of course, is very important.

[Janneke]
Yeah.

[Eryn]
Balance, Ena says. Balance.

[Janneke]
Yeah, it's all about balance.

[Eryn]
Yeah. I have another question. What advice would you give to artists trying to get their first festival bookings?

[Janneke]
What advice? I think a good live session. If you haven't played that much live, I mean, you can, there's multiple ways you can record a good live session. You can also do like a, I don't know, a living room type of session, but I think showing promoters, festival bookers, what you are doing, how it sounds live is very important. So if you're not playing that much live shows yet, a really good live recording, I would say, can really help, yeah, to do that more. And that, I guess, yeah, that would make sense. That's just a very practical tip, I guess. But I mean, as a booker, I am not, like I said before already as well, I mean, I don't, I am not able to see everything live, but if there's a really good live video that helps to get like an impression of what the recorded music is like live, because sometimes there's such a big, big difference and something sounds so well recorded, but then live, it's just not quite there yet. So, yeah.

[Eryn]
Yeah, and then I guess sort of a follow-up question leading to the eventual festival bookings is, maybe you might've already answered this when we were discussing booking agents, but how can artists approach bookers in a way, or just bookers in general, not just booking agents, but how can artists approach bookers in a way that feels genuine rather than forced? Because I think it's difficult for artists, of course, who want to succeed to try to not look or feel desperate about their career growth.

[Janneke]
Yeah. What I see very often is that artists send like an email to a lot of bookers at the same time. And you can just see that it's a general email because then they're like, we are touring this summer and we are interested in your festival. And I'm like, I don't work for any summer festivals. So I don't know why you're sending me an email. Yeah, like a copy paste kind of. Yeah, or yeah, then I just know I'm in the CC somewhere instead of it's actually sent to me or my team, you know? Yeah. So I think in general, know who you are sending the email to. Like when is the event? What type of things are they booking actually? And maybe if you can find it, the name of the promoter or festival booker. And yeah, just write a personal email. It is really like applying for something, you know? So yeah. Yeah.

[Eryn]
I think a personal approach works well. Yeah, for sure. Just being yourself and being open and honest and not robotic is always important too.

[Janneke]
Yeah, I don't speak with robots.

[Eryn]
Yeah, exactly. Perfect. Yeah. And then I, just before I ask our final form question, I wanna open up the opportunity for anyone who's listening to ask a question in the chat while we still have time for those. And this is just like a very personal question, but what excites you most when you're seeing a live performance?

[Janneke]
That's a really good question. I think for me, it is also some sort of credibility in the sense that what you said, like when an artist has just a really good stage presence and the music and this extra bits sprinkled on top, they just work so well together. I think that's when it gets really exciting. Yeah. But, and that could be any type of stage presence, right? You don't have to be like Joshua Idehen and speak with the audience. And it could also be just, I don't know, being really cool on stage. And I don't know, I think there's some sort of credibility. I'm like, am I believing this performances? Like, is this, am I believing this music?

[Eryn]
Yeah. I think also just having fun playing, performing the music that you wrote is...

[Janneke]
Yeah, you can tell.

[Eryn]
Yeah. Yeah. It's very important. Yeah. Yeah. Since we don't have any additional questions in the chat just yet, I'm gonna ask another one of mine, given the fact that this platform that we've built is largely for independent artists, but we've had a lot of future project managers and bookers and agents also join who are really interested in connecting with other parts of the industry. So I'm also curious maybe for any people who want to get into booking or into curation, like what advice you might have for them?

[Janneke]
Just organize things, basically. If you are part of a scene somewhere or you're not quite yet, but you want to be, or you're noticing in your own city, there should be something like this and that could be anything, but then organize something for a bunch of hyper-pop artists or organize something for a dance music night or... Yeah. Yeah, that is how it worked for me, at least. I started doing things and curating because I felt like there should be something like this and I'm gonna take the matters into my own hands. And then I guess the ball starts rolling. Yeah, or it can start rolling. And also, I think going to conferences and meeting new people...

[Eryn]
Yeah, for sure.

[Janneke]
Is for sure also a really good tip. Or just working with artists or walking up to an artist after a performance and saying, hey, I'm interested in your music. Can I do this or that for you or something? Yeah. Connecting with people.

[Eryn]
Yeah, networking and just finding community, I think is a really important and overlooked part of the music industry because so much happens online and so many people listen to music in an isolated space that I think sometimes it's forgotten that the community is one of the more important parts of the industry.

[Janneke]
Yeah, especially live, you know? Yeah, live music, it's always gonna be live. During COVID, I think maybe it was thought that maybe it was gonna become a hybrid type of form. You could watch things online or be present in the moments or something. But I've always felt like, no, that's not gonna happen. I guess as soon as we're able to go outside again and be in small rooms together, we will. Because I guess that's just what people wanna do. Yeah, I think, yeah. It's just very much about life and physically being there.

[Eryn]
I think it's a very, very important part of it. Yeah, getting out and interacting with your community as much as possible. Yeah, for sure. I'm gonna try and rack my brain for a final question because I was hoping that there were gonna be more people with some curious questions. But I suppose I can also ask, because we had Hanneke Dykstra on from Simplon last week, who was not a Booker at Simplon when you were there, but I wanted to note that we both, at separate points, worked for Simplon Up as programmers.

[Janneke]
Yes.

[Eryn]
And I was curious to know how, yeah, I suppose how that either encouraged your entrance into booking professionally, or what about that experience inspired you to continue?

[Janneke]
I think when I just started at Simplon Up, quickly after I got the job at ESNES. So for me, it was already, like I was already serious about curating music and knew that I wanted to do that. And then I got that opportunity. So it very quickly followed up. But what I like about Simplon Up is that there was a lot of room for experiments. And yeah, just really showing artists that otherwise don't really get a stage, or just yet. It's really one of the first stages, especially also for artists from Groningen or this region. It is one of the first, for me as an artist, it was as well. It's one of the first stages that you, like one of the more professional stages that you play, after playing at some parties or bars, that sort of thing. Simplon Up is like the events, Simplon is such a nice, decent venue. And it's such a good learning experience for artists to be in a space like that. So yeah, that's what I really liked about it. Yeah, because you literally can see the growth. And that's what I like at ESNES as well. It's the same type of thing in that regard.

[Eryn]
Yeah, for sure.

[Janneke]
Being able to give someone an opportunity to grow, basically, yeah. Just one little step, you add just one little step into their path, basically.

[Eryn]
It can be an important one. Yeah, and we spoke with Hanneke about this last week as well, too, how she said that sometimes openers for headlining acts that she'll book for Simplon, she'll have found through Simplon Up. So it's also community-led programs like that are really important, I think, for both artists and industry professionals who are starting out, because it's a lot more of the DIY side of the industry that is then being supported by a venue that then helps you grow your network and meet other people in the industry. And I think that is always a really great first step from both ends of the spectrum in the music industry for just making your way into being a more regular performer or professional of some kind.

[Janneke]
Yeah, that's exactly it, yeah.

[Eryn]
Okay, I think I'm gonna cap it there, because we're coming up on time. But thank you so much again, Janneke, for coming today. And I really appreciate the very insightful conversation that we've had, and I'm very grateful to everyone else who came to listen. Next week, we're gonna be speaking with Oscar O'Shea, who founded his own management company that's based out of Aarhus in Denmark. And I hope you guys come back then next week as well. And again, thank you again, Janneke.

[Janneke]
You're welcome. Thanks for the great questions and having me.

[Eryn]
Yeah, of course. All right. All right, have a nice Sunday. Bye-bye.

[Janneke]
You too, bye.