Session 2: Jesper Borup on funding art as a tool and getting started as an advisor

Jesper Borup left a booking and organiser career to found MOTU, which writes funding applications that use art with target groups the system already wants to help (young people with anxiety, neurodivergency), framed as investing in health outcomes rather than pure culture spend. He walks through his own path: unpaid year to get into the industry, running a free festival to build a network, then years of advising bands before starting his own thing at 50. His practical advice for artists chasing funding is to apply in multiple places at once since a single rejection after months of work is a real risk, and to find collaborators who cover what you are bad at (he can't do art, his artists can't do budgets). He is blunt that only 10 percent of Danish musicians live off music alone, and that treating it as a hobby you can still be serious about is a healthier frame than needing it to pay every bill.

Full transcript

[Rasmus] (0:02 - 0:08) I think I'll let you do it all yourself, because I think there's a lot of things to share there. [Jesper] (0:11 - 3:03) All right, thanks Rasmus. Yeah, but I was hoping you would ask about a lot of stuff, because I don't really deal with stuff like this. But it's just nice to be invited indoors, and I can see there's a lot of people now. And thank you for coming, of course. I didn't know about this project before. He told me about it, I think it was a month ago or something, maybe a bit more. And I think it's a really nice way of getting new ways of doing it. And he asked me if I wanted to just come and speak a little bit about my experience with working in this business. And it's been years for me. And I know a lot of you are musicians. And you know, when trying to being your own boss and having an artistic outlet, it's kind of tough. Yeah, there's gonna be some tough times. I've never been a musician and don't really consider myself an artist. So for me, it's been working alongside artists all my life and really enjoyed that from kind of getting the hang of it, or at least getting really interested in it by just sitting in a rehearsal room with a band I loved. And then it just took off with me helping them years and years ago. And that was just Yeah, that was just something special for me just to be able to be in that creative space. And it kind of propelled to working with music. So I started trying to I've always been listening to music since childbirth. So yeah, it's just been what music can do, and how we use it and what it actually means to everyone. And for me, it was something I needed to do, as we all do. Yeah, we need to study, we need to try and find out how we can put words on the feelings music have and all that. So I started musicology. But before that, I already worked in music, just trying to get starting out growing coffee at the thing called Jose. Yeah, I started in I think it was in 2001. Just figuring out how do I correct and everything is is weird in this business, with people just doing all kinds of things themselves, and a lot of organization and states trying to push money or not into areas. So that was kind of a steep learning curve. [Rasmus] (3:04 - 3:25) You were also I mean, yes, but you've done I mean, you've been in the walls of multiple times and you've done things around it also. I mean, I got to know you when you were working as a booking agent at a venue also, or as a promoter. But you did already work for Rosa before you joined that venue. [Jesper] (3:27 - 3:56) Yeah, the thing I did was actually, I just, I deliberately went without a job for a year to be able to work there. Because then you could go there, and it would get paid by the state. Yeah, it's kind of weird. But yeah, yeah, it's, it's, well, so so I, so I, I did work that year, but not that much. So I had to be unemployed to actually get in. Because they didn't hire anyone. [Rasmus] (3:57 - 3:59) So they didn't have the money, maybe for for hiring. [Jesper] (4:00 - 8:13) They didn't. Yeah, they could have had the money, but they didn't chose choose to have it because they just like, I would, I will elaborate a little about this later on, because that's kind of the, the key, I found out within, yeah, with just within the last five years, that there's kind of a, this is kind of a bad thing going on with people coming into this industry and working in it. And I wouldn't say getting abused, because it's, it's also a, you learn a lot. But there's not, there's not really jobs for anyone, everyone in this area. So yeah, it's, it's kind of, yeah, it's, it's good and bad. It's not bad. But yeah, I was, I just started out like that. And there's so many people doing that, just working for nothing and trying to, to figure out how this all works. And then, then during that, I just started studying musicology. And then one day, I, I was just, yeah, I had to do a thesis about where I had to do some, some fieldwork. And then I just went to the boss and said, Hey, who's going to book the next year's festival? And they said, now we don't really know. And I said, I can do it. I'll do it for free. And then let's go. And and that was just an amazing year. It was so, I was just 2 really lucky, because there were so many good bands that yeah, yeah, so it was, it was kind of easy to, to, to do the program. And it had a lot of, it was a lot of good stuff happening. And I just got settled with all the bookers in Denmark, they knew who I was, and I who know they were, who they were. So, so that kind helped me a lot. And then, yeah, and then I studied, finished my studies. And no, I actually didn't finish them, because that venue called me and asked me if I wanted to book a, in my, in my birth city. So yeah, I couldn't say no. And so I ended up not finishing, finishing my thesis. But yeah, that's how it is. And it's kind of the way sometimes life turns out. But that was kind of the first section of my life working in this business, because I got sick and tired of it. Like many do, and I had the choice to do something else. I was privileged, privileged to be able to do something else, because I have an education when I was younger. I was just selling records and working in retail. So, so I just went back to do that for five years. And that was fucking horrible, but I did it. And then I thought, okay, I need to, I need to come back with something else and try to do it differently. And that's where I'm after working on five years inside an organization, again, the same organization, I just became apparent for me that it's, it's not a good place to work. It's just you need to do like you also do as much, do something yourself and try and build stuff yourself. And I wish I would have done that 10, 15 years ago, but now I'm ready. I'm 50 this year. So I finally got the courage to do it. And then I found out I, the reason I got the courage is other people, it's just finding the right people that are in the same places. And I just got another focus on working with music, using it as a tool in areas where we don't really, yes, some people have been working with it for many years, but not that many to use it in different and just with people, with the citizens that maybe never been a concert before, trying to set up stuff that where that works and finding the right artists for it. And I love it. I'm going to do that rest of my life. I really like it. [Rasmus] (8:15 - 9:29) I think some of the things you said are, I find extremely valuable for a lot of also artists, even if you're not working in the industry, but you're just an artist. It is this thing with that most of the time to get started and make something work out in this industry, you sort of need to hustle your way in and you can't be guaranteed to get paid before you get started. Like you also said, okay, you just offered it for free. You did well. And then there was an opportunity. And I think that's what a lot of artists also are recognizing. Okay, you need to grind a lot before something happens. And you can also, you can also necessarily be the dust happens. And this leads to the other good point you had is that you need to really like what you're doing when you work in this industry, because it is a hard industry. It's hard to make money. So you need to get and really enjoy what you're doing. And yeah, I agree with you that, especially working with other people that share the same views and the same sort of passion for it really makes a big difference. And that is also part of this project. Yeah. [Jesper] (9:30 - 10:10) I think one of the things I would like to, if I can sell how it works, how it's been working for me and the people I work with now. Yeah. Maybe people of course, don't we really knew and but we found out, I found out I wanted to work in with music in this way. And with art also, it's not only music, but but music is kind of reliable. Really. And it's upfront and people knows, everybody's got some kind of relation to music, not and some people don't have relations to theatre, but everybody has something some kind of relationship. So it's, yeah. [Rasmus] (10:10 - 10:57) Maybe I should just, maybe I should just mention that the whole set that you mentioned before, did you work for, for anyone listening in that's not in Denmark and knows what it is. It is this organization that helps artists to grow opportunities. So there's actually an organization that does a lot of projects. And Jesper has been creating a lot of these projects for them. And now Jesper started his own company called MOTU that is doing these kinds of projects where they look for funding to help artists in, in different ways. And so it ties into both music culture and a lot of, Jesper has a lot of experience getting projects that centers around music funding. I just, I think that I'll just, I just add that if anyone's listening and has read up about you. Yeah. [Jesper] (10:57 - 14:27) And I see, I can see our new website. I'm sorry, it's not that great, but it's just up in the niche. So, so some people might not really know what's going on, but, but I, there's one thing I would like to try and, and, and elaborate about. And that is, that is how this, because all of you know, your network and the people who help you, and you've tried to find people that can, you can work together with, you know, that of course, but the, the way we, we did it was actually, and usually some, all good stuff comes out of some, some bad things, usually, just some bad experiences. And we were just, we were a bunch of people working together, finding out that the, the future for us was not in that place. And there was a lot of frustration because people are just project, not hired in a kind of a future safe way. It's just project to project, you have to raise money for your own project, and you have to do that in another company. So you don't really have the final say in anything. So yeah, there was just a lot of frustration. And we started meeting outside of work. I was just the way it was for us, and just to vent, just to just, just half an hour, just frustrations. And where we just had too many experiences with, with the bad project, project and people management, and especially people management. So we wanted to bring in control of who, who we work with. And that's also a thing when you group yourself together with people you like, and we try to play each other better. And it actually started out with something we call circus meetings, which kind of, kind of crazy, kind of just stupid, but it was, it just grew. And we did it once a month or more. And after all the frustrations and insulations were out of the body, it's just, then came the creativity and the ideas and the project ideas. And then just saying, okay, we might just try and just do it ourselves. And the thing is, I couldn't do it myself, I got the energy from the other people. And because they had some, some other qualities, I can do one thing, and they could do something else. And also it was from other artists from, from, from literacy, and also theatre and stuff like that. So it was, it was all areas. So just trying to, it was the same problems, but different, different arts. And so it started out with those meetings, and it just, more people were invited in. And then we ended up saying, okay, let's make a network. Let's make an NGO. And just try and apply, make, write these projects, do it and apply for the money ourselves. And that was kind of the thing, people saying, okay, can you do that? And what about taxes? And what about all this and that? But when you're 50 years old, and have some kids in the house and stuff like it's, it's no problem. It's and it really, it really isn't. [Rasmus] (14:27 - 14:28) You have the, you know, the grime. [Jesper] (14:29 - 15:11) Yeah, and it's made really easy. You can do everything online today. And it's, it's easy to just do that. And then you just need to, the most challenging thing is, of course, if you have the patience, because, because when you do an application and work with it for, let's say, a month, maybe half a year or something just in your spare time, then it's kind of, it's kind of really important then that you're not only applying one place, because you put that much work into it. And then, yeah, so what we do is at least six months, we apply for different funding in different places. [Rasmus] (15:12 - 15:22) Yeah, because you never know if you get funded. So if you don't get funded, then you're kind of screwed spending six months on doing something. And so yeah, no money. [Jesper] (15:22 - 17:27) But the thing is, some of our projects sometimes bleeds into other projects. And we also started working, working together with the local authorities and local communities and all the knowledge you get in all the areas, especially when working with places, places that are in direct contact with the specific target groups that we have, because we have kind of two areas that we focus on making using art as a tool for better health. And there's a lot of funding going on there. That's one of the reasons I'm doing this is that, at least in Denmark, and I know also in other than a lot of other countries, a lot of the private funding are looking for art to use in that area. So that's, I was lucky to get money for two projects. And that kind of thing and gets you working together with people you're not really used to. And then also for the artists being involved in involved in the projects, they have their own artist way of working with going to venues and playing music and all that and making their own music, having an artistic outlet. But this is this is a new area where they can actually work and get paid, paid well. And some of these artists are also working and planning the projects. So that's kind of a nice way of making money for artists in working in this way. And that's what kind of that's actually from back at that, that rehearsal to now. The thing I really like and love to work with is working with artists that want to use what they do in different areas. I didn't know back then, but I found out now that this is something and there's a lot of work there, actually. And there is money also. [Rasmus] (17:30 - 17:35) But is that like cross-culture? Do you mean like cross? [Jesper] (17:40 - 17:48) Yeah. Are you thinking about specific genres of music when you say cross-culture? [Rasmus] (17:49 - 18:06) Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking like, are there any products and corporate like music and maybe arts, other arts like, I don't know, painting or theater where artists that are into music could actually work together with other performing artists? [Jesper] (18:08 - 20:58) Yeah. The thing is for us, where we work now and we have two applications out right now, out working and we are working on a new one. So we're going to have three projects going on in Denmark, and hopefully from next year, or maybe just one of them, who knows? That's kind of the idea. And, but the target group here is people, usually young people from, let's say 14 to 29, that are having neurodivergency or are in difficulties by anxiety and stuff like that. And where they are, they're usually grouped in different organizations or different small places where they meet and get education and stuff like that. So we put the art in those rooms and the artists in those rooms. So the crossing, having a painter and a musician, it's to do that in the same room. That's too much right now. For some, it will be okay. But this is just when working with this, these people, it's about, I was doing, I do something myself too. I'm not playing music, but I'm a huge, don't care and stuff like that. So I started painting all kinds of weird stuff and building stuff when, during COVID. And it kind of just took off. And now I'm actually also trying to, not even trying to, it actually happened, have done some education for these groups in this area. And it's kind of really fun. I fucking love it. It's just amazing. But there it's just about having these people to sit down and focus for three hours. That's the main idea. And we can do that. And people, the adults working with these people have a hard time just having these people focusing also because it's people, young people with anxiety and who's had a really bad life. But it's really interesting working with this. And it's been the music that started it off for us. And it's really been some great experiences, because the main project where my network started was Solo, which is 100 concerts a year in small places with this target group. And there's been some amazing experiences. And and yeah, we try to, it still runs. It's just not me running it anymore, because I stopped that also. [Rasmus] (21:01 - 21:23) There is actually, there was a question that someone wrote in before this conversation. Where she's asking or he's asking, it doesn't have to say if it's a man or a woman. But this person asks that if I'm an artist and I want to start applying for funding, what are golden tips for me to get started? [Jesper] (21:26 - 22:55) I love a question like that. I would just say one thing, just go to do that. But that's also one thing that's kind of leads me into some thinking about when this business as an artist, because I've been doing what's it called in English? I've been what's it called? Advisory, [Rasmus] advising. [Jesper] Yeah. I'm advising new bands and stuff. I've been doing that all my life. And the new thing is I'm not doing it by myself anymore. I usually have a sidekick or maybe it's actually me being the sidekick, because I'm just a privileged white bearded man. So where I come from, it's old times. And that's it's kind of important for me that there are some new thinkings. And I've done some education just to try and also work out how we speak to each other and how we can do it better. And also with all the gender differences and all the problems there. So a question about how can I easily do this? Where I came from back in the days, and it still is, it actually still is like that. If you ask people that's been in the industry for a long time, they usually say you have to do this and this and this. And it just doesn't apply. It doesn't apply anymore. [Rasmus] (22:57 - 23:01) You mean the old generation in the music industry? [Jesper] (23:05 - 25:01) Also just thinking about an album is all that. I think it's perfectly cool and it's nice and it's like that. I love an album. But there's usually not just one way of doing it. There's so many ways of doing it. And the main thing I advise about is just to find out where it is a specific musician is. So if it is you want to apply for money for your own project, your own music, your own musical works, then it's one thing. But if you want to apply for in a project that contains other people and has kind of an outlet towards a social group of people, then it's something totally different. And you can actually do something for society that's not only your own thing. And you can cross those things kind of not easily, but it's doable. And I think the greatest things about our projects is that the artists are making them. It's not me making them. We are doing it together. And so it's about finding out what is it actually. If you play music and you want to work with a group that has anxiety or just presented to these kinds of forms, then I would just ask how would you like to do that? What would the best way for you to be and do that? And then we work from there. And then we piece things together and find the right places to go to. And then you make it into a project by applying more artists and having some good relation to these. [Rasmus] (25:05 - 25:36) It was kind of an OK, if I should summarize your answer, it is that if you want to start applying for money, the most important thing is actually just to get started and find out where maybe also your energy lies. And so not so much think of it as like I want to have money, but more I want to succeed with something and I need to make it happen. But I'm very passionate about it. So it becomes more about your passion in what you're applying for than anything. [Jesper] (25:38 - 28:38) Yeah, I think that applies for any musicians or artists. They always work like that. So that's also something that's kind of, yeah, that's important and that's not foreign for any artists. So that comes naturally. But I think it's about my experiences that what I can help with, because I'm not an artist, is all the stuff that artists usually think, I'm not doing that, I can't write this and that. And some of the artists I work with, and that's one of the reasons that they're really, really good at meeting people with issues with their art in the back. So that makes it really reliable and creates some special places. And the thing is actually, some of the expression is something that artists do really, really well and holding a room and taking a space and having courage. So and these three things are really, really something you can use with when you're working with groups that have a tough time and usually have been in a system for a long time. And so it's energy coming from another place. And if you can take those things that artists are really good at, and combine it with kind of the boring thinking with budget, budgets and planning and all that. I love doing that. And I love writing a project, if I have the artist voice in my ear and speaking with them and drinking with them, having coffee with them doing anything, and just finding out what, how are we going to write this? So yes, some of the artists I've been working with that have been doing these projects, some of them have those things to buy bipolar stuff and stuff like that. But it's, yeah. And it's just great energy. And I think that my answer would be, figure out where, where you, where you, the most, just the first thing is, of course, to find out where you can apply for the money and find out how well, there's many places, and just put them in that Excel sheet and just, just try and figure out how to, when can, when do we have to apply? So just make that base of your application. And then, and then when you have to apply, just, just do some fine tuning and stuff like that. So, so that's, that's one thing. And then work, work with it for half a year or something. Don't do it at once, all of it. It's too much. [Rasmus] (28:39 - 29:21) Yeah. Spread it out. Yeah. There's one, there's a, yeah, I hear in the chat is asking also, like she's saying, she's doing something like this and asking for a way to get in touch with you. And I think we can, we can probably, after this, this conversation, we can share maybe your email from Motiv, so that, and then, then I'm thinking, I mean, what you're saying is that if any, if there's an artist and I, and I wonder if it's different, if it's someone in Denmark or someone in Netherlands or somewhere else outside of Denmark, but if you're an artist, at least in Denmark, is it possible then to just reach out to you guys, if you have an idea for a project that involves music of any sorts? [Jesper] (29:23 - 29:35) Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. We all, what we also want is to do something cross-border at some point, but yeah, so, so no problem. But yeah, always right. [Rasmus] (29:36 - 30:22) Because I think, I'm just, what I hear you say is also like, you're pretty good. You have a whole setup for the structure and more of maybe the boring side that is often too overwhelming for artists. And what you're looking for is you, you're very welcoming towards artists with any artistic idea, creative idea to work with them and see, is there a project here that we could do together somehow? I think, I think exactly what you're doing is so incredibly valuable for, for artists and especially ones that are very expressive because they, they're great at all the abstract stuff and creating the songs and the music and the ideas. But when it comes down to putting numbers in sheets or that kind of thing, that's often when you feel like, oh my God. [Jesper] (30:22 - 33:08) Yeah. And it's actually kind of crazy, but it's something we're used to saying, but artists are actually good at this because they are used to working with their own company. So it's about, yeah, so it's something we say, but usually actually when it comes down to it, it's just about doing it else. And that's the same thing for me, actually, I can't, I wouldn't be able to do it myself. So, so it's about that room and that network of people. And what we did was also when working with this specific target group of, of young people or also elderly people that are having a tough time and putting art in that place. For us, it was, it's also when you apply for stuff in bigger projects, in the millions, it's all, you're not going to get money as an art project. You can, of course, if it's, if it's something else, maybe, but what we do is, it's also about moving, having people to move from being on wealth in the welfare system or having no jobs and having no educations, just the state always want to help these people and in, in necessarily good ways. But we, I've, the two, there's two people in the network that are working with moving people into work from unemployment and stuff like that. So, and that's kind of, that's an area that helps when you apply for money and also having connection to people who can do some foresighting, some research and do some thesis on it and do doing some writings that are some data that can be used and stuff like that. There's a lot of focus on, and it's about time we have some focus on that because it will make applying for money or getting more funding for stuff easier when we have more of a coherent data behind all the work we do. So, at least there's going on with that. That's kind of nice, but it's really a fragmented area to do research. And, but we have research also in these projects. And it's been one of the reasons we can get funding. [Rasmus] (33:09 - 33:30) I see also, I see here, yes, Pierre, there's a guy here asking, thank you, Pierre. He's asking if like, okay, he's saying like six months, like, does it really take, take that long to do these applications? And I think it depends on the applications also, of course you say like, so there's a big difference in depending on what you're applying for, right? [Jesper] (33:31 - 35:14) Yeah, of course it's, it depends how big the project is and how many collaborations there are. Because when we do a project, there's, we are, I come from the artist side with the artist. We approach, I'm a part of the project, so I can plan it all and I can hand hold it all the way and do all that stuff. That's yeah, all the phones and all the 400 people, but that's only one area, all the places where the artists go to that, maybe that is 200 people. So all that communication and all that meetings before that setting that up, we don't necessarily need to meet everyone eye to eye, but just the organization working, you're working with. For instance, there's a place called Special Minds. It's only four places in Denmark. They work with autistic people and are really, really good at it. So, and they have these four places. So having a meeting with them, finding out how and what it is what kind of art is it? I just had a meeting with them the other day where we were, everyone, everybody was in room and just finding out what it is they actually need and then trying to figure out how we do that. And that's, yeah, I love doing stuff like that. So, so it can take, I wouldn't say it takes half a year to do it. If you do it every day, it's for me, yeah, two weeks, two weeks, maybe, but the planning usually takes a long time because people, you have to meetings and people are just busy. [Rasmus] (35:14 - 36:56) So, yeah, I think it's also for you, Pierre, with the question you're asking is that it's a big difference if you're doing a project that involves a lot of people, like, if you want to do a larger project, say where you wanted to work with material here on something that benefits other people outside of the music, then it takes a longer time to plan it. But if you're looking to maybe just apply for, I don't know what country you're from, but probably there's some funding you can get for maybe putting out releases or doing a tour or support in those ranges. They are fairly simple to do and don't require that long. That's most of the time, just you coming up with a good reason for why you need the funding for maybe the release of the tour. And a lot of it, I think, comes down to considering your music and your band or ensemble, what you call it, to be sort of something that provides value for the culture in your country. So sometimes it can be beneficial to, instead of seeing it as you getting some money because you're broke as a musician, you see it as the government or that organization investing in your music in terms of getting some reward back in culture value. That is at least something I've seen. I've noticed myself when I was still playing music that made a difference for us getting more funding is it's about showcasing why they should invest in you in terms of a culture. I don't know if you have any experiences with that, Jesper, with any of the bands that you work with over the years. [Jesper] (36:59 - 37:14) Yeah, but yeah, I don't know. I don't think I've have weird experiences with that. And I was thinking in how, if it was easy to get money for the projects. [Rasmus] (37:16 - 39:01) No, I mean, no, there's more, I think it was just more in terms of like, I mean, when I was still playing, I was applying for funding off fairly often. We were touring a lot around Europe and also releasing stuff. And in the beginning, when I was applying, I didn't get a lot of funding. And then I can't remember what it was that made me understand the difference, but I basically went from saying like, Hey, we're this band making all this cool music and it's really awesome. And you should give us money so we can put it out and do stuff. I went from that to saying, Hey, we are trying to achieve this. We've already achieved this and you should give us some money so we can put it out and achieve more and bring culture back to the country. And then it changed. So it's sort of like, I think I've, at least also from when I produced for a lot of other bands is that when you're yarning out, you don't always understand this part until someone tells you. And that was just so valuable for me to see like, Oh yeah, of course. And that's just kind of like, I'm, you know, it's not like, how do you say these soup kitchens where it's, you know, okay, I'm really poor. I don't have money to release my own music. Please give me some money so I can do that for my own benefit. You know, it's of course like, Oh yeah, you have, there's a point behind the money you're giving me. And it is to bring more for culture that I think sometimes you just need something that, look at the funding in a different way, more with a business mindset, you know, okay, why would someone invest in from a culture if culture was, if money wasn't the currency, but culture was. [Jesper] (39:02 - 41:48) I think it's usually one thing I remember where I kind of clicked for me was also trying to read bigger projects, how they worded it and how they, I can easily see why people get money if they have, you can see if they work together with a big hospital and stuff or whatever, but just being honest about looking at the thing you do, that is not for you. It's for other people. I think thing for me, it's for why we do this is because you want to help someone. We want to help these people. We found out that actually art is kind of, it's really working because these people don't really want to do all kinds of weird things. And then art is also kind of a broad specter for us. It's not fine art or anything. It could be, but it doesn't really exist, but it's just about having something to meet around. And it's about the community and creating communities and creating communication and just spaces. So that's just one thing is, I would say just before we, I can see the time has run out is that in Denmark, the funding for culture is 5 billion Danish kroner a year. And, but it's just a scale thing. And it's everything. It's also, there's a lot of it that goes to football colleges and stuff like that. And the area we work with is health and that's 296 billion a year. So people used to say, ah, don't use art. Don't put art in front of this, that art has to be free. And it's just people still saying that it's just like, okay, do you want to live? Do you want, should we maybe collaborate with the more money? And it's not a business thing. It's just a natural thing to do because art is more than just putting music on a stage and having great time. It's actually a lot more than that. Yeah. [Rasmus] (41:48 - 42:38) I fully agree. I think that there's multiple places where you see, and especially music also having a big impact on health. I mean, I have a friend that's been studying about how to make different kinds of music in hospitals, make patients feel better and recover faster. So there is a ton of crossover that, and I think that is maybe also valuable for people to consider when they want to do a maybe a project that's a little larger than just releasing music. Is that, are there any other sectors that you could combine what you want to do with? And I think you, what you say with the health sector, that's an, I mean, there's so much money in that sector. So it's really worth looking at is, is what I'm doing. How is that actually helping someone outside of them just enjoying the music? [Jesper] (42:41 - 43:41) Yeah. And there's some good things going on in Denmark with that, in that area. There's a lot of focus. So there are money to get for projects that wants to work with that. So, yeah. But that was one question about if we had a, an open call, I thought, but at the moment, no, it's, we will in the future have it, but for now we are, as we just started out for real a couple of months ago, getting all organized for real, then it's, I really love making open calls and I've always been doing, I've been doing that all the time because it's so interesting just how it opens up everything. And it's also got also really good when you do applications for stuff that you actually have open calls. [Rasmus] (43:41 - 43:48) No, sorry. I was just repeating what you said. You might have that in the future. [Jesper] Yeah, we will have that in the future. [Rasmus] (43:49 - 45:04) Okay. I'm just looking at some of the questions people sent in before as well, and I see I missed a few, but if I think I can try and sum, there's a few that are like a little bit the same questions, where if I should sum these different questions up, it would probably be like, if it's, they're longer questions, but I think it boils down to that. [Jesper] And I have time. It's not a time thing. You can just start. [Rasmus] But it, yeah, so I, but there's like three questions that are roughly the same, which is that they're saying that they're new to the industry as musicians, but also one of them is working in industry and then they don't have a lot of contacts or connections. And so they're asking like, how should they, how's a good way to get started getting new contacts? And what they're saying they're afraid of is to, you know, they're afraid of that they're going to be, you know, how do you say, taken advantage of or look silly or something. I understand it's a little bit of a difficult question maybe, but I think what they're trying to ask is, do you have any suggestions on how to get started building your network in the music industry with integrity? [Jesper] (45:08 - 47:26) Yeah, I think I'll try and ask and answer in two ways. The short one is, of course, just be yourself and just do it because the people don't know anything anyway. So just do it. It's just, and just be kind and nice and it's going to be fine because it's hard to answer stuff like that. But yeah, it's just, that's the only thing, but more on a more practical note, the second string we're working with in Motif is the work environment in art industries. So we actually have a project called Proud Artists where you asking that question can apply with your band or as a solo artist. We travel around five different cities in Denmark doing that. Of course, I know that it doesn't apply if you're from Denmark, but just the way of thinking, just bear with me. It would be just to find places where you can apply and meet all the musicians. What we do is actually connect these people directly with good radio people, good management. It's not necessarily someone they are going to work with because they are really green. These bands are really, really new. But it's just helping you saying, okay, these are just, it's just music. It's just people working with music. It's just okay. And these guys go to a concert and then they meet all these people. No, they don't go to a concert. They do their own concerts and then they meet up with the radio people and people from the industry that are nice people. So just, yeah, just getting kind of jumping off a ledge and saying, okay, this is okay. I can do this. So that's one thing, finding some projects or some places where people work with just that, because there are so many artists asking that when they start out, because it's kind of, there's no, you can't be schooled in this. It's just, yeah, it's just, yeah. [Rasmus] (47:27 - 47:31) You can just get started, get started. It's one way or the other. [Jesper] (47:31 - 47:37) And there's no easy way. It's just keep at it. [Rasmus] (47:37 - 48:25) It's no cheat code. We have also, we actually have for this project, we have a forum. Ina has shared it somewhere in one of these, like maybe it's the introduction place, but we have this opportunity where you can fill out if you look for specific contacts. So if you have some, someone, some type of person looking for an industry or other artists across the borders, you can fill in what you're looking for. We're trying to help out matchmaker people and put them in touch with the right, anyone. Yeah. Because it is hard to get started for anyone. And I don't think I know anyone that's still working in music that didn't have it easy. [Jesper] (48:27 - 49:06) No. And the thing is also, if they get it easy, then they usually also get really bad at some point. And that's a different conversation, but it's hard for your mind working with stuff like this and working with art, even though you get really successful at it's the tempo. I know you spoke last week about with Martin about that, the tempo where it just wears people down and the industry just wants everything to happen so fast and just learn to say no and say, okay, not now. We're going to do it later. [Rasmus] Yeah. [Jesper] (49:07 - 50:14) Yeah. It's one of the things. Yeah. But it's one of the things people use, the old people, including myself, used to say just, yeah, you have one chance and that's bullshit. You have many chances. It's about, it's if you want to live with music for the rest of your life, it's not necessarily something you're going to live only from, but if you want to live with it, you have to do to live with it in a way that it could be your hobby. And a hobby is a cool thing. It can be professional, even though it's a hobby. I don't know who it is telling people that it can't and having something else to do also. So in Denmark, there's only 10 people of the 10% of the people that are actually musicians that are living only. So the last 90% they do something else also. So that big group of the important 10%, that's just random. It could be anyone. [Rasmus] (50:15 - 50:56) Yeah. I think this percentage you say here, Jesper, I think is super valuable because I remember also coming up with music and a lot of, like you, you had this feeling and everybody, it's, I think everybody else had that, at least that I knew that, you know, you were kind of a failure if you weren't like super successful. And that is just a weird, how do you say, thing you do to yourself. So this thing with that, being okay with that music for you is maybe just a hobby. You shouldn't measure yourself in terms of if you can pay all your bills with it, you need to enjoy it. And maybe it'll turn into something that you can pay bills with. That shouldn't be necessarily the goal. It should be about enjoying the process. Yeah. [Jesper] (50:57 - 52:46) Usually that's also where the best art comes from. So yeah, when you mentioned an open call, for instance, we had, I think it was two years ago. We had, I think, 200 and some applications and we should, we only had to use, I think we needed eight musicians or something. And there was one musician, he had anxiety and I think he was 19 or something. And he sent some stuff to me and it was just fucking mind-blowing, amazing. He was singing inside of his mouth. It was just, I've never heard anything like it. It was just amazing what he did. And I've followed him and found out how he's doing today. It's all good. He had the courage to actually apply for this project, meeting people that had the same problems as him. He's not applying to Spot Festival or Eurosonic or anything. At some point he probably will, but for him, it was about doing the other thing. So a project we had there was just a gift for him. The thing was, I didn't have the courage to put him on that team in that year because he was too young and I was not sure if it was a good idea because he was kind of fragile. So that's also some kind of the work that you have to do. But I'm just mentioning him because it was just his own thing and he did it not for anyone else. And that's usually really strong when people are like that. [Rasmus] (52:47 - 54:56) I see Aya also writing that she feels the idea that we have a success is an illusion and to her success is a life well lived. Yeah, I mean, the creation process is really all that matters. And it's difficult for an artist because of course, no one starts off thinking, yeah, let me be this person while I make my music. Everyone starts off wanting to do music. And then in the process, they're met with everyone saying, oh yeah, but you need to be active on social media. You need to also do this. You need to do that. You need to book this. So all of a sudden you're like, oh shit, I need to be a business person to be a musician. And then you get sidetracked and all that. And then it's hard to remember that, hey, I'm actually doing this because I like it. But I think to round this thing off also, this thing with that, what you've said a number of times now is just that if you work together with others that also enjoy it and people can do different parts well, I think that is really the way to go, like working together. And that's one of the things I hope we will get out of this project as well is to have artists and also it's across borders to work together on planning something. I mean, when I was touring Europe, that's how we got out of tours. We would hook up with a Dutch band. They would book Dutch shows. We would book Danish shows. We shared German shows. And I was just at Eurosonic also a few weeks ago. And I met up with this girl that runs a local record label in Groningen. And she was saying that this was basically just some bands that was doing the same thing, deciding to team up to try to work together. And then every new band they sign, they sign them also, of course, based off of the music, but also based off of their willingness to help work for themselves. And then they have like weekly meetups where they meet and they work together on booking shows for all the bands and doing applications and all that. And I think that right there is something that if more artists actually did that, they could get really far. [Jesper] (54:57 - 55:33) Yeah, but it's kind of really nice to hear. It's just a working community and that's always been a good thing no matter what you're doing. So yeah, but the thing is you're saying when having a hobby or being an artist or whatever it is you call it, it's just like being a YouTuber. It's fun if you start out and then you just, and it's good fun. And you have an old camera and it's just a crappy sound. And then it's all of a sudden just becomes a business where you have to get sponsors and you have to do things in a weird way. [Rasmus] (55:33 - 55:37) Because otherwise you're not getting paid, you know, make sure you say the name five times. [Jesper] (55:38 - 57:00) Yeah, exactly. And then that's kind of where it gets. Yeah, it becomes work. And it's okay. It is work if you enjoy it. And being an artist, if you want to live from it, also with it, it is hard work. Everybody knows that. And it's okay. And people want to work with their art. Also with all the crap I do with paint. I just love doing it. I could do it all day. But yeah, people have, if I had to live from it, people have to buy it. But that's not how I want to work with it. I can teach in it. And that's kind of the idea of the things I've been saying is, is there something else you can do with it? I don't even want to sell all the stuff I have. But I can maybe put myself in the room with the knowledge I have and have a good time and show people what I've learned from this hobby. Because for me, it's headspace. For me, it's being allowed to do something where I use my hands and my brain and just get into a flow state and have a nice time. And it's the same with making music with people or just by yourself. So yeah. [Rasmus] (57:01 - 57:13) Thank you Jesper. Thank you for coming today. Also spending time with everyone. And I think if anyone wants to get a hold of you, we can share your email at Motiv maybe in the community. [Jesper] (57:14 - 57:21) Yeah. Rasmus, you can just share the one where we mail the Gmail one. That's the easiest way to do that. [Rasmus] (57:23 - 57:37) I'll do that. Then let everyone know. I think we'll do a I think Ina is going to write like a small recap about some of the things we talked about and then add your Gmail to that if people want to talk to you or ask you questions about the projects they might have. [Jesper] (57:38 - 58:00) I tried not to rabbit hole stuff, because there was also who was it who mentioned music therapy. I could go on and on about that also, because we had how important that has been in the project we have. There's a lot of knowledge in that area. And yeah, I won't go there, because it's a long chat. [Rasmus] Okay, we'll do that next. We'll do that another time maybe. [Jesper] Yeah, just say when. [Rasmus] That's cool. Okay. Thank you, Jesper, for your time. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in and joining. And yeah, we're going to share what Jesper talked about. And if you have any questions, just throw it in the general chat in there, and we'll do a best answer. [Jesper] (58:22 - 58:47) One thing I would say, if I had to do it again, it would be really nice to see your faces, at least. I know it's Sunday and all that, but having it being able to see people and say hi, and look them in the eye. And of course, only the people that want that. It would be nice to say hi for real. [Rasmus] (58:48 - 59:12) Yeah, I think there is a future also where we're trying to do some of these where it's more low-key. People can listen in if they're cleaning the house or doing the dishes. Yeah, that's a good idea, actually. Yeah, but we will do some sessions that will be with video on. So maybe we can plan some bigger ones. And if people have some things they want to see in the sessions, share it with us. [Jesper] (59:15 - 59:16) Thank you for having me. [Rasmus] (59:16 - 59:25) It was a pleasure, Jesper. I'll see you later, man. [Jesper] See you. [Rasmus] Okay, bye-bye, everybody.